http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#679731c7-4d4f-44e2-946a-9c4ef3b66dcf I don't really agree with what they did but, I also understand, having been invovled on and off for over 20 years with Anarchist/Activist groups, women are often run over rough shod by males especially when it comes to expressing their opinions, I have witnessed men being long winded when speaking and even belittling to women who were simply expressing their opinions about issues. I am luckily very dominant personality but even I have had to take some guys to the mat so to speak. Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:59:41 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#679731c7-4d4f-44e2-946a-9c4ef3b66dcf $item.owner.firstName 2007-07-11T00:59:41Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c5baa0db-f512-4e13-93f7-f86fd46d2ee0 wow, this is a really good tribe. I'm new to both tribe and anything anarcha/feminist, but i get what your saying jude. this is far more than a division of chores issue for me as well. i'm sick of thinking about the gender/behavioral makeup of a meeting- are women participating enough? are women over compensating? i also want a community that is beyond this conversation, and others like it- but unless its all women, how do you do it? and then you pop back to the original post- and i don't want to be a part of any community that says no or makes definitions like that. i've been feeling real low about gender issues lately because I don't want to convince men of anything, and i feel like girls know it already, but what happens in the moment? somebody said on another post that often new relationships work okay, it's when people are comfortable that the divisions start happening. i think that is so true. how many coffees have i had served to me before we were 'friends' and then i prepared afterwords? but because of how i look and who i am- which i am no longer willing to change- i get talked down to even in the beginning. i think the coffee serving has more to do with trying to get into my pants- when i think i should be considered less attractive to these supposedly enlightened men. (bona fide blonde valley girl, mascara and all) i went to a meeting recently where once again i was patiently educated by the man standing in the front of the room. why was he standing there? why did he educate me? in reality i could have educated him- both about anarchy and life- but i just don't know what to do in those situations. okay, i fell right off topic- angry, i just feel angry in places i don't want to. Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:19:33 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c5baa0db-f512-4e13-93f7-f86fd46d2ee0 C 2005-07-21T14:19:33Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#e1c4871a-58bc-4eb2-854e-78d509cae6f0 " ...but I can also see a safety and security side of it that is sad, but also very real. " well I think that it's important for people to acknowledge feelings like their feeling unsafe with you there, alecs, but in order to DEAL WITH THEM. so I think the group should have taken the opportunity to work it through so you could stay and people with discomfort could learn about their discomfort. of course you belong if you identify as woman and come from a similar place politically as the others. I was reading peoples' thoughts on anarcha/feminism - the equality issue and hierarchy issue in particular. About division of labor. Lately I have this very strong need for community. And what I mean by that is the idea that everyone helps everyone be well. I don't want the same chances in some competition. I want less competition. I want men to be supportive of women's efforts as much as women are supportive of men's efforts. Listen to me talk about what I'm up to as long as I listen to you talk about what you're up to. This goes WAY beyond sharing housework. I want conversations about sharing housework to be a thing of the past. Can't do that level anymore. Okay just some of what I've been thinking about... Really think this conversation's important and appreciate that you're all here having it. Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:13:59 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#e1c4871a-58bc-4eb2-854e-78d509cae6f0 jude 2005-06-21T15:13:59Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#5327612c-e9cd-4421-af8a-be5a0c42e86f glad to find a tribe here on anarchist feminism and glad to be here...I've been thinking about something... Before goin' on I should probably intro myself...Alecs, 22, San Francisco, CA At my school, there's an anarchist coalition type club and we've been around for about two years. Recently, a group of female members decided to start an anarcho-feminist sub group because they felt that the existing group was too male-dominated physically and ideologically, which I agree. Here's the thing... Upon finding out about the sub-group, I became interested and wanted to join. However, when I approached one of the organizers o the group about this, she essentially said that only PASSING women are able to join... I wasn't so much angry...just disappointed. I understand the group wanted to maintain a safe space for women...but was I expecting too much for my fellow anarchists to not judge based on face value and actually see who I am?? They've already known me and worked with me for a while too which is another bummer... Are you only a woman if you are able to pass or choose to pass? My history of trans and queer activism says no...and so does my understading of how anarchism should be. Am I simply too naive to expect acceptance? Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:35:33 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#5327612c-e9cd-4421-af8a-be5a0c42e86f sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-20T23:35:33Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c03af854-c867-4310-88f9-d9a5b621f962 i personally believe if we are to eliminate sexism and patriarchy alienating those who wish to help and saying "no" because your a man is by definition is sexist and counter-productive.if are to combat sexism, its not a one way thing.women are sexist too,this must be realized.jsut because your a woman doesnt make you superior,isnt that what we are fighting for?not one person over another.maybe you should bring it up that it sexist to discriminate a person because of sex,and if someone genuinly wants to fight patriarchy they need open dialouge with the women who feel opressed to figure out how the men can help with the problem in the collective. patriarchy is specifically a male domination thing,but sexism is male and female. a safe space for women is one thing,but like i said,if there is a problem with patriarchy and sexism its not healthy to exlude based on sex(ask them what if they where outright excluded cause there non-peeing your name in the snow-peepee havers) a womens caucus should be a safe space for women only but also have a sub-collective that allows men to join to combat patriarchy. -soymilk! Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:27:19 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c03af854-c867-4310-88f9-d9a5b621f962 uppercut 2004-02-21T01:27:19Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#9c062c49-d24e-435f-8a4e-6eebf22d2c90 I don't think my issue was so much that the group was women's only...I'm cool with that...but that it seems like it was either a bio women only group (women born women only), or a group that allows only trans women who'd pass (that they "looked like women"). That was my issue. What about those who identify as women but who don't pass? Are their womenhood therefore less valid? Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:56:43 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#9c062c49-d24e-435f-8a4e-6eebf22d2c90 sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-21T09:56:43Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b166dbf3-7728-4897-bd08-98cdbab9773c Trans women are as legitmately women as biological women...that was my point Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:42:39 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b166dbf3-7728-4897-bd08-98cdbab9773c sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-21T19:42:39Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#5e98be6f-df09-4e95-be67-9a833a3ab33a yes...yes they are Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:21 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#5e98be6f-df09-4e95-be67-9a833a3ab33a uppercut 2004-02-21T21:12:21Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b4313de9-2bc0-4d2a-8327-9fa6c072a71d I feel that by allowing "passing women only" the said group (I don't know any of them) is continuing to enforce the gender binary, which is not only a bummer but seems to go against the basic grain of anarchist-feminist belief as well. Personally, I am a woman-born-woman and currently identify as a woman 99.9% of the time, but it hasn't always been this way. Along with identifying as a woman, I identify as genderqueer or queer in general. I'm not really a self-defined anarchist, except when the label is helpful in disproving someone's stereotype. I've recently been part of a project where I organized with a mixed-gender group of self-defined anarchists and to my surprise, many of the male anarchists had HUGE control issues, needing to be "in charge" of an event that supposedly had no leaders. When I brought this up to a few of them, one admitted that it was fear of authority that made him feel the need to control, while another denied trying to be in control at all and told me that I was having control issues. What is this all about? Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:02:49 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b4313de9-2bc0-4d2a-8327-9fa6c072a71d Harvey 2004-02-21T23:02:49Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#52354f2c-94e3-4da2-972f-d1e487e76012 yeah,,,fo' real...man...WTF Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:45:00 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#52354f2c-94e3-4da2-972f-d1e487e76012 sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-22T04:45:00Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#d610ca2c-2357-4764-b3e1-0d18c66f73b2 In all this there is a thin line between idealism and reality. As a womon I want to feel safe and validated in a space. We are all the same, asking someone to let go of all the realities that make up their experience is a bit of a tall order. Hence when womyn say things like they feel more comfortable around womyn that look like womyn, that can be understood for what it is. Instead of going off and feeling bad about it, use the process and examine those statements. Help everyone to see the core philosophies driving such a thought. What's the real issue here? Would they feel better if you wore a skirt to meetings? Use some humour to lighten up the atmosphere. Maybe some one could tape the meetings and then you can see where you could help. I know it's hard to do when you feel marginalised and it sucks that another group that should have the analysis to know better would do this to you, but as a black queer anarchist womon (when I accept labels that is) my experience has shown that larger groups rarely have in-depth analysis of their actions and it takes the marginalised outsider to point out the holes in the theory and practise. If this is important to you, don't give up. Start your own group if need be, put your analysis of the situation on paper maybe, make your thoughts and needs clear. And expect lots of backlash...none are so self righteous as those that feel they are the victims. hope it helps. peace in the stuggle, shala Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:00:57 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#d610ca2c-2357-4764-b3e1-0d18c66f73b2 shala bean 2004-02-28T20:00:57Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#7e9a2489-bd52-40ff-9c0f-8455de324a92 Yeah...I know what you're saying, and what you said bout how some people feel safer with women who "look like women" is also uh...understandible. I've been thinking about starting my own sub-group, as I personally know many genderqueer anarchists who could potentially be on the same boat as I am. I just HATE having to constantly justify my own identity and having to prove that I belong to a group...'ve been doing this my whole life, and I'm pretty sick and tired of it. Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:25:50 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#7e9a2489-bd52-40ff-9c0f-8455de324a92 sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-28T20:25:50Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#816eadd6-77af-453a-ba96-0c4fc338e143 And as for the thing about idealism vs reality... We're anarchists, politically we're already marginalized. If we don't have our ideals, what the hell else do we have? Don't mean to sound pissed or anything... xoxoxo Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:28:05 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#816eadd6-77af-453a-ba96-0c4fc338e143 sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-02-28T20:28:05Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#f42e2aa9-7238-4bf3-9fbc-3ef2ffeb4c01 "We're anarchists, politically we're already marginalized. If we don't have our ideals, what the hell else do we have?" all we have really is our action... when it come to having a womens caucus like they have in portland i think that it is a place where women(i dont use all the variants of women that are out there,read"semantic masturbation on the left"by ward churchill) can discuss issues about patriarchy in the group without prying eyes(so to speak),but there should also be a group of men and women who activly discuss the patriarchy inside the group. having a group that denies men and is only for "passing women",seems cliqueish,sexist,and marginalized by the others. but the anarcha manifesto(has one one read it yet?) points out the "tyranny of structurelessness",without proper structures to deal with patriarchy and sexism,no one will be held accountable and nothing will be done about patriarchy/sexism. in autonomous struggle, ~soymilk!~ Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:42:43 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#f42e2aa9-7238-4bf3-9fbc-3ef2ffeb4c01 uppercut 2004-02-28T21:42:43Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b172017c-7bff-4a70-bee9-db364dd04358 I think only allowing "passing women" is fucked up. if you self-identify as a woman that should be all that's necessary. unless they want to start a separatist group and strictly define themselves as women-born women, which to me runs counter to many of the ideals that anarchists (hopefully) share. Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:30:15 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#b172017c-7bff-4a70-bee9-db364dd04358 $item.owner.firstName 2004-03-08T23:30:15Z http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c77d7f8c-cb1c-4f57-bed1-1212324b831e That too is how I felt innitially (and still do to some extent), but I can also see a safety and security side of it that is sad, but also very real. Thnx d\for your support btw. Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:35:24 GMT http://anarcha.tribe.net/thread/48e6113a-5c5a-46d9-891d-0a0d1bb7ad6e#c77d7f8c-cb1c-4f57-bed1-1212324b831e sailor alecs (aka: heidi ho!) 2004-03-08T23:35:24Z